Relay test run
I was at the KL Towers earlier this morning and I caught up with the relay test run:
I found out from a forestry department personnel that the torch run will cut through the Bukit Nanas Forest Complex. As many as 500 individuals will crowd into the small path that cuts through the minute forest reserve. They will enter the reserve through Convent Bukit Nanas entrance before reaching the KL Tower.
I wanted to shout “FREE TIBET” but I thought I’d want to save my voice for tomorrow.
A number of major roads will be closed tomorrow to accommodate for the run. During the BERSIH rally, people complaint about the rally causing traffic congestion. I wonder if the same voice would be heard when the torch run causes the same congestion tomorrow…
Well, I’m almost ready for tomorrow. I bought my banners and all from, drum roll please, Carrefour.
Yup, they’re French.
I thought only people in the west were fooled by the media.
Apparent you are, too.
If you really want to talk about Xizang (called Tibet by the west), go back and study a bit more history about it before you do so.
I shall tell you some facts.
Xizang is more free now than ever it has been.
Dalailama wants independence so that he could get people in Xizang back into slavery. So you support slavery, don’t you?
What’s more, tommorow is for Olympics, and not for politics.
Don’t behave ugly.
Maybe it is you that has been fooled by the Chinese government. And maybe, it is you that need to go back and study a bit of history.
People politicized the Olympics when it is their best interest to do so, INCLUDING China. So, don’t give me “tommorow is for Olympics, and not for politics” kind of crap. It’s hypocrisy.
And I support liberty. From oppression by China and slavery. I don’t support Chinese oppression or slavery. And even if Dalai Lama wants to instate slavery, LET TIBET DECIDES, not China. Then, Tibet would have to take the criticism.
hafiz is just an overfed rich boy, looking for a public cause to champion, who imagines hiomself to be a saviour of the romaticised tibetans. this kind of political masturbation does not need in-depth knowledge of the world as shouting one or two simple lines of slogans like “free tibet”, “free press”, “human rights” would earn him some grants from NED in the coming months.
The Chinese government acts like an insecure, violent, abusive boyfriend who will never let his bruised, traumatised girlfriend break up with him.
Tibet is NOT a part of China. Period. And yes, there are millions of Asians who support Tibetan independence (I am Chinese Malaysian), because they are aware of how badly the CCP has treated Tibet for the last several decades. We’re not anti-China, we’re just anti-stupidity.
Any rational Malaysian who is a friend of human rights, democracy and the freedom of expression will be peacefully protesting the “propaganda torch” today.
If anyone is interested in what happened in Bangkok the last leg… here’s some pics: http://wassupnat.blogspot.com/2008/04/bangkok-torch-relay.html
Hafiz, it intrigues me that how you could say “let Tibetans decide” and “free Tibet” at the same time. The former champions the democratic rights of the Tibetans and do not totally exclude the possibility of political manipulation for the current unrest; the latter simply means that you are taking side and believe that the Tibetan rioters we are seeing stand for all Tibetans.
Yes we don’t have enough information about what’s happening in Tibet at the moment due to China’s cover up (which should indeed be criticised); but scarcity of information doesn’t give us the liberty to assume that our preconceived notion or prejudice is automatically justified. Yes this applies for both pro-Tibet and pro-China supporters.
If we don’t know enough about the current situation, the only justified protests are “let us see and listen to Tibet”, “say no to media control in China” etc. Saying “FREE TIBET” and “Tibet will always be part of China no matter what” based on very subjective debates on history will not do anyone justice. Taking side without knowing the picture is irrational.
The two are not mutually exclusive, don’t you think so Chang Yang?
In fact, Tibet could be free and decide matter on Tibet for themselves.
And a lot of people choose to be neutral because they don’t take the effort to learn of the issue. I’ve made my effort to learn and I’ve made up my mind and I think it takes courage to take side. And if I were to be proven wrong, I would gladly reconsider my position. But it is presumptuous to assume others of not knowing the full picture.
So far from my readings, I have yet to be convinced why Tibet should be under China. The best way to solve this issue to let Tibetans to be free to determine their own future. Thus, free Tibet. Freedom goes beyond physical freedom. Freedom is larger than about being free from others.
If Tibet chooses to stay within China, so be it. As long as Tibetans have a say, they are free.
I thought your “free” means independence.
Which was how people use it in the protests, if I’m not mistaken.
Still waiting for your reply.
By the way, more reply to your previous comment:
It takes some people courage to take a stand; but it doesn’t mean anyone who takes a stand is a courageous person, nor does it mean people who haven’t or do not intend to choose a side is a coward or intellectually lazy.
“It is presumptuous to assume others of not knowing the full picture.”
That’s what you said in your own post - you do not know the full picture of the current situation in Tibet because of the media cover up. And everyone knows every single media has their own bias and may not tell the whole truth (Chinese and Western alike).
Talking history and sovereignity is meaningless, in my opinion, if you are indeed ONLY championing freedom in Tibet (not independence). For all I care, Tibet could have or have not be rightfully owned by China - the only important thing is, if all the people (not just thugs) want independence, so be it; if the majority do not think it’s a good idea, then the thugs should be caught and thrown to jail.
When people say “Tibet should be independent”, they are assuming that they KNOW most Tibetans WANT independence, which is impossible because they simply don’t know what the Tibetans think today. Most people with the slogan “Free Tibet” are championing “Tibet independence”, and if your free means “liberty” and “freedom of speech” instead, you should really avoid the mix-ups and tell off the people with “tibet independence” themes who happen to use the same words as you.
Chang Yang,
This issue transcends what happened recently in Tibet. The crackdown was one small piece though for me, it is the trigger point. Previously, I only read on Tibet out of curiosity, like those for Quebec, Basque, etc. The one that pushed my opinion towards the pro-Tibet group was the PRC treatment against the peaceful pro-Tibetans. Besides, given the PRC record against liberty - as an example, against the Falun Gong - that decision wasn’t hard to make.
And yes, history maybe meaningless to some extent but who do you think are the ones bringing up things like Tibet has always been a Chinese state when history clearly showed that it is not the case? When these pro-PRC distorts history, there is a need to correct them. In fact, the one that first conquered Tibet was the Mongols, not the Chinese. When the Mongol empire collapse, the Yuan/Ming dynasty tried to exert control over what the Mongol had built.
And no, it is not an assumption. Readings will reveal the sentiment. In fact, if those readings are contested as biased, there is only one way to prove it: democracy but will the PRC allow a referendum?
Talking about mix-up. Maybe but the way free speech was silenced on Monday and having an idea how PRC does it, I am only proud to stand by them.
Hey Hafix, what a sucky thing to happen. What I want to know is - why did you not go help Gek (the lady with the pink hat right?) during her time of need?
She suffered the harassment immediately after I was harassed by a group of PRC volunteers. I was slightly disoriented and didn’t understand what was going on after that. I only understood the sequence of event in retrospect. Even the pictures that I took was more of a reflex rather than active thinking.
Even during that time, I was scared. It was a situation of 2 individuals versus mobs in the hundreds.
…… and yet you claimed to read much on the issue. the mongol empire IS the Yuan empire. and when the Yuan empire collapsed, the Ming empire simply inherited the lands of the former empire, as was the convention around the world then. what do you consider the manchu qing dynasty as if not “the chinese empire”? the manchurians are not “han” chinese, but definitely their empire was a “chinese empire” no? being chinese transcends just the msian chinese you see everyday dude. most msian chinese are “han” chinese. while there are 55 other ethnicities of “chinese” in china. being msian, surely you dun think msians are only “malays”?
the tibetan region has been under the territories of the “chinese empire” since the yuan dynasty, yes, for THAT long, even
longer than the history of australia, new zealand, USA, and canada COMBINED. and yet you can say
“….Tibet has always been a Chinese state when history clearly showed that it is not the case?”
i wonder whose history textbooks youre reading.
during the chinese civil war after WW2, the entire country was in disarray, states fragmented and and were autonomously administered by local warlords and plutocrats. and that was how tibet got their short “independence”, along with the other chinese provinces. when the CCP won the civil war against the KMT, it was their duty to reunite the provinces and and bring back what was then china proper.
if THAT “independence” is the basis of the tibetan independence, then modern china would only include the municipal council of beijing.
IT IS THE DUTY of any sovereign gov to stop any rebellion in the country, especially that it has turned violent on the part of those “oh so peaceful arsonists and human torchers”. what do you think ABB would do if some hundreds of folks started torching KL? give them easter eggs and a bouquet of daisies?
in case you did not know, NO COUNTRY ON EARTH recognises that tibet is NOT part of china, despite what those politicians are saying on the media. read their official government stand on the sovereignity of china upon tibet. NOT even taiwan supports a free tibet, mind you.
it is quite obvious you and that person above who claimed to be a msian chinese named Ling havent read much about chinese history, and so stubbornly defend your ignorance and excuse all other arguments as mere chinese propaganda. sad case, really.
OK, let’s not talk crap.
Xizang is about our National interest.
So unless you start a war against this, we are not going to give it up anyway.
You guys are not doing anything related to anti-stupidity.
You are showing your own stupidity.
By the way, I don’t think the Chinese government is treating people in Xizang with any unfairness. Instead, the government is giving them many advantages over us Han people. The government even provide lamas in temples in Xizang special allowance, so that they live a comfortable life.
If you still choose to stick to your own opinion, which most probably arised as a result of reading western false reports and books, it is your own choice.
You are free to show your stupidity.
Be careful of the difference between Mongol and Yuan. Mongol empire was larger than Yuan while Yuan was a fragment of Mongol empire in China only. The Mongol conquered the China (which in that time, didn’t include Tibet.
About China has 55 ethnic groups, you are applying definition modern state into the past, when modern didn’t exist. I’m sure the Mongol didn’t consider themselves as Chinese back when they conquered China. Assimilation only occurred years later. Don’t confused the timeline.
And for Yuan, like you said Yuan was Mongol. The Ming was only trying to claim what the Mongol had achieved. And it is true that Tibet has not always been part of China. There was a free Tibet kingdom before the Mongol conquered. Why are you ignoring the Tibetan history that began earlier than the Ming if you are so adamant about history?
You are being selective about history, aren’t you?
Yep, I admit that you are good…
There was a independent Xizang before Yuan.
But please remember that was 800 years ago.
The Americans took their land from local Indians (they killed them) less than 600 years ago.
So the land does not belong US, is it?
Why don’t those Indians go and claim the land for themselves?
Why don’t you go and protest against the American government, since you are so keen about human rights?
You are being selective, too.
No, I’m not. What the US did is wrong and the US deserves the criticism. But at least they’ve apologizd. But I’m not here to defend the US. I’m not even a US citizen. Any country, including the US should be criticized when they do wrongs.
That however does not absolve what China from its wrongs. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
You did not get my point.
You admitted that the US did wrong by taking land from local Indians (and by killing many of them), and they apologized.
But is apology enough here? Why not return the land and let local Indians alone? That is the most that the US people can do.
Apparently they are not trying hard enough, aren’t they?
If you can forgive the US for this, why are you sticking to the Chinese government?
I admit that the Chinese government sometimes do wrong.
This mere fact, however, does not justify the claim that Xizang should be independent, because in fact, all governments do wrong sometimes. So according to your logic, almost all countries should be split up. Is that correct?
Where were you when other governments do wrong?
You cannot deny the fact that the situation of human rights protection in China is improving. It needs sometime to perfect itself. This is not an excuse for you to encourage splitting of China, however.
By the way, who is claiming that Xizang should be independent? Dalai lama? Come on, he is nothing more than puppet controled by the US.
I think I talked to you in KL on the day of torch relay, when you were holding a board with “LIBERTY” witten on it. Am I right?
It rained later, when the torch was heading towards KLCC. Where were you then?
Is human rights protection less important when it is raining?
Or is it not so important as your own comfortable life?
In reply to my comment, you said “And even if Dalai Lama wants to instate slavery, LET TIBET DECIDES, not China. Then, Tibet would have to take the criticism.”
This shows that you don’t know Xizang at all.
Before the Chinese government had a firm control of Xizang, 95% of the people there were slaves and utterly uneducated. This is because Dalai, who was the leader of slave-masters, does not want the people there to be educated, and hence easier to be controled.
So you expect these people to make decision on their own destinations? Be realistic, please…
So in conclusion, it is Dalai that wants independence for the benefit of the slave-masters.
The Chinese government was trying its best to set up as many as schools and hospitals there as possible, to help people there get education and modern knowledge. As a matter of fact, schools and hospitals there attracted most attacks last month.
No, it is you that are not getting my point. All wrongs should be criticized, be it done by China or the US or even Malaysia.
You say human rights in china improving but free speech is still curtailed and free press unheard of.
And I was there at Jalan P. Ramlee that leads to KLCC even when it rained.
And no, if PRC has election, the “slaves” could decide by themselves in a free election on what they wanted, not what the PRC wants.